And this with first 50,000 miles using only fast DC charging.
WaitformeBumblebee
“Tesla also noted that, according to its estimate, a vehicle gets scrapped after approximately 200,000 miles of usage in the U.S. and roughly 150,000 miles in Europe. ”
Usually they get scrapped because repairing the ICE components gets more expensive than the car is worth. Things like injectors, catalytic converters, FAP/DPF filters, hard to pin point problems in starting and running the engine that can be related to a myriad of expensive components like full cabling, fuel pump and ECU and plain broken engines…
So I guess BEVs will be on the road for longer if they don’t have these issues.
penkster
I have a 2014 Model S 85 (like, first gen here) we bought a year or two ago from a friend. It had 190,000 miles on it. It now has 208,000, and we get about 180 miles out of the battery.
Can’t tell you what the original range was. But all the hand-wringing about batteries will need to be replaced in 5 years when they lose all their capacity is complete bunk.
goRockets
That’s really good.
Degradation seems to be not really an issue for EVs then.
Now I hope Tesla would release data on what percentage of batteries required replacement at various ages.
Buying a used EV with 100k+ miles with 20% degradation is not a big deal if it keeps running. The worry is that the battery would suddenly fail and the owner would have to pony up $10k-15k without warning. The failure may not be due to the cells itself, but caused by a myriad of other causes like coolant leaks or bad solder joints.
If the rate of battery replacement is extremely low up to 200k miles, then I wish manufacturers would offer extended warranty on battery packs.
I know I’d gladly pay $1000 to get a 15 year 200k miles warranty. If the failure rate is extremely low, that should be a money maker.
If a manufacturer offers standard 200k miles battery warranty, that would likely sway my decision on which car to get.
RustyImpactWrench
This is good news and for most people battery life shouldn’t be a major factor in the decision making process. One grain of salt, though, is that batteries degrade with use and with age. Because EVs haven’t been around in large numbers for very long, most of the high mileage examples are vehicles that get driven a lot, and therefore haven’t suffered as much age related degradation as an average vehicle will. How much will that move the needle? We’ll have to wait and see.
Also, the data on vehicle lifespan is really hard to come by. Based on my research, I came up with an average US lifespan of 21 years and about 250k miles (based on actually scrapping and not exporting out of country). If anyone has any good data sources on this, I’d love to refine my model.
M_Equilibrium
Degradation is a subject that is known well for these battery chemistries but not understood much by the consumers:
The current batteries usually see a linear degradation until around %75-80 of their capacity. After that the battery degrades very rapidly and die.
The cycle life, that is number for “full” charge/discharges of the cells changes significantly with the charging limits, storage charge levels etc.
If one abuses these cells, fully charge and discharge, it seems to take around 500 cycles to get to the rapid degradation region. Suppose on average a vehicle gets 250 miles per full cycle, then this means at least 125K miles until that point. This falls in line with the warranty limits!
While newer chemistries like lfp can be fully charged and still have great cycle life, most of the current cells do great if kept between ~%20-%80, but even %10-%90 should significantly improve cycle life.
In a 20-80 regime they should go above 1500 cycles before the rapid degredation period. For a car that gets 250 on average this means at least 375K miles.
So the given numbers look right.
That being said the 150-200K life for vehicles is BS. I think EV’s can easily double that given no battery failures.
Another important consideration is that, while battery failures are rare, they do occur. It’s not necessarily indicative that a battery will not fail just because it hasn’t degraded significantly. When that happens you are looking at 15-20K replacement cost today. That makes the out of warranty teslas somewhat risky.
Razzburry_Pie
Electric cars suck! At 200k miles my ICE car makes the same horsepower as when new. None of this degradation stuff. It’s the same motor and all, except I’ve only had to replace the timing belt, valves, lifters, cams, radiator, water pump, thermostat, fuel pump, injectors, throttle body, alternator, spark plugs/wires, head gaskets, rear main seal, and oxygen sensors. Oh, and the cat converter some tweeker stole. Otherwise, it’s still the same car for 200k miles!
Grendel_82
And new battery tech (like what gets installed in 2025 and later cars) should degrade even slower.
Speculawyer
Those Hertz Teslas may be a huge bargain! Especially if you qualify for the tax-credit.
9 Comments
2019 LR Model 3 AWD. 150,000 miles.
Original range 310
Current range 282
And this with first 50,000 miles using only fast DC charging.
“Tesla also noted that, according to its estimate, a vehicle gets scrapped after approximately 200,000 miles of usage in the U.S. and roughly 150,000 miles in Europe. ”
Usually they get scrapped because repairing the ICE components gets more expensive than the car is worth. Things like injectors, catalytic converters, FAP/DPF filters, hard to pin point problems in starting and running the engine that can be related to a myriad of expensive components like full cabling, fuel pump and ECU and plain broken engines…
So I guess BEVs will be on the road for longer if they don’t have these issues.
I have a 2014 Model S 85 (like, first gen here) we bought a year or two ago from a friend. It had 190,000 miles on it. It now has 208,000, and we get about 180 miles out of the battery.
Can’t tell you what the original range was. But all the hand-wringing about batteries will need to be replaced in 5 years when they lose all their capacity is complete bunk.
That’s really good.
Degradation seems to be not really an issue for EVs then.
Now I hope Tesla would release data on what percentage of batteries required replacement at various ages.
Buying a used EV with 100k+ miles with 20% degradation is not a big deal if it keeps running. The worry is that the battery would suddenly fail and the owner would have to pony up $10k-15k without warning. The failure may not be due to the cells itself, but caused by a myriad of other causes like coolant leaks or bad solder joints.
If the rate of battery replacement is extremely low up to 200k miles, then I wish manufacturers would offer extended warranty on battery packs.
I know I’d gladly pay $1000 to get a 15 year 200k miles warranty. If the failure rate is extremely low, that should be a money maker.
If a manufacturer offers standard 200k miles battery warranty, that would likely sway my decision on which car to get.
This is good news and for most people battery life shouldn’t be a major factor in the decision making process. One grain of salt, though, is that batteries degrade with use and with age. Because EVs haven’t been around in large numbers for very long, most of the high mileage examples are vehicles that get driven a lot, and therefore haven’t suffered as much age related degradation as an average vehicle will. How much will that move the needle? We’ll have to wait and see.
Also, the data on vehicle lifespan is really hard to come by. Based on my research, I came up with an average US lifespan of 21 years and about 250k miles (based on actually scrapping and not exporting out of country). If anyone has any good data sources on this, I’d love to refine my model.
Degradation is a subject that is known well for these battery chemistries but not understood much by the consumers:
The current batteries usually see a linear degradation until around %75-80 of their capacity. After that the battery degrades very rapidly and die.
The cycle life, that is number for “full” charge/discharges of the cells changes significantly with the charging limits, storage charge levels etc.
If one abuses these cells, fully charge and discharge, it seems to take around 500 cycles to get to the rapid degradation region. Suppose on average a vehicle gets 250 miles per full cycle, then this means at least 125K miles until that point. This falls in line with the warranty limits!
While newer chemistries like lfp can be fully charged and still have great cycle life, most of the current cells do great if kept between ~%20-%80, but even %10-%90 should significantly improve cycle life.
In a 20-80 regime they should go above 1500 cycles before the rapid degredation period. For a car that gets 250 on average this means at least 375K miles.
So the given numbers look right.
That being said the 150-200K life for vehicles is BS. I think EV’s can easily double that given no battery failures.
Another important consideration is that, while battery failures are rare, they do occur. It’s not necessarily indicative that a battery will not fail just because it hasn’t degraded significantly. When that happens you are looking at 15-20K replacement cost today. That makes the out of warranty teslas somewhat risky.
Electric cars suck! At 200k miles my ICE car makes the same horsepower as when new. None of this degradation stuff. It’s the same motor and all, except I’ve only had to replace the timing belt, valves, lifters, cams, radiator, water pump, thermostat, fuel pump, injectors, throttle body, alternator, spark plugs/wires, head gaskets, rear main seal, and oxygen sensors. Oh, and the cat converter some tweeker stole. Otherwise, it’s still the same car for 200k miles!
And new battery tech (like what gets installed in 2025 and later cars) should degrade even slower.
Those Hertz Teslas may be a huge bargain! Especially if you qualify for the tax-credit.